For the longest time in Plato’s Gorgias and Phaedrus Socrates has been trying to pick apart rhetoric and rhetoricians and prove that it is nothing more than a glorified title. He continuously had counter arguments to rhetoric and played devils advocate when needed to prove that rhetoric was not anything special. In Gorgias, Socrates would always bash rhetoric and make it seem as if it is not a specialty because anyone who is educated in their field of work and is good at speech can technically be called a rhetorician. However, in Phaedrus, we start to see Socrates backing up and defending rhetoric and what it can actually stand for. He later goes on to talk about those who are ignorant think that they discovered what rhetoric truly mean when in fact it is quite the opposite, and that is where he-Socrates-stood before. Socrates is acting like Gorgias was when they had their first altercation about rhetoric, because he is explaining to Phaedrus what it takes and what is required to be a rhetorician.